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dginther
USA
27 Posts |
 Posted - 12/18/2008 : 11:00:23
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I'm on a new well.. New home construction. The house will be finished in about 60 days and I need to prep to budget for water treatment options. Like everyone else, I've run into the "one solution for everything" guys and the guys that don't bother to test the water beyond hardness.
General description of the water:
1) Not completely clear - some indications of sediment that eventually settle out of the water (I've been putting it into a 200 gallon tank). The sediment that settles out is very very fine and seems to have decreased over time.
2) Sulfur smell. This is typical of all the well water in the area
Initial mistake:
1) I didn't sanitize the well after drilling. I had it tested after drilling and I had a huge amount of coliform. We've sanitized since then, which kills he sulfur smell, but I haven't had it retested.
The water is very very hard. I've had hardness tested twice - once it came back at ~100 grains of hardness, the second time at 80 grains of hardness.
Actual water quality report (lab tested):
http://geocities.com/cb1000rider/Ginther_well_report.pdf
Goals:
I want to protect my plumbing - mainly I have a high dollar solar water heating system.
We can deal with hard bathing water.
Drinking water can be via under-sink RO.
I've talked to Gary Slusser - he's been great and is recommending:
1) An erosion type chlorinator with his special "mixing tank" - somehow this precludes the need for a contact tank. $773
2) A Centaur Carbon filter w/ WS-1 valve. I believe the 2 cuft size - $850
3) A large softener.. $1020
4) Under kitchen RO with booster pumpt $300-$450
Local water treatment guy - who has done my neighbors well:
1) Don't do Chlorine.
2) "Addie" (brand) Sulfur treatment tank and valve - basically injecting oxygen into the water.
3) Softener.
4) RO under counter w/ UV if I think it's necessary.
Other treatment options have been:
1) We won't touch water like that.
2) $10k+ Whole house RO and tank system.
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cow_rancher
USA
1111 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2008 : 12:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by dginther
I want to protect my plumbing - mainly I have a high dollar solar water heating system.
I finally went with a stored solar water solution, with a heat exchanger for the domestic hot water, stored water is also piped thru the slab for hydronic heating. I used a "cheap" RO unit ($120) to fill the tank with, took about a month at the trickle that the unit puts out.
The thing that isn't advertized about RO units is that they waste about 2 times as much water as they make.
Rancher |
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dginther
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2008 : 14:44:38
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I'm in TX - no need for whole house heating 99% of the year.
The unit is a tanked solar system with 2 collectors - tank is on the roof. I just don't want hard water destroying the solar unit tank.
RO for whole house isn't under consideration at this time due to cost and required storage tank.
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spencer6497
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2008 : 14:45:58
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| If someone tries to sell you a $3500.00 Springhouse filter made by Ecoquest let us know or do a search. Its not imo a good filter for a well or a whole house filter. I have had lots of problems with mine and the company. spencer |
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dginther
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2008 : 11:48:09
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| Spencer, anyone who brings me a "whole house" solution without lab testing the water, isn't going to get the time of day. |
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spencer6497
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2008 : 15:39:33
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| dginther, that's the starting place. A good water test and go from there. There are several good guys here who will help given some information. I had problems with the Springhouse people and want to make sure other people have that information before spending 3,500.00 for a filter they may not need or one that will not do what they claim it will. Hope you get your problems worked out. I did and it didn't have a thing to do with a Springhouse. |
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Andy CWS-I
81 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2008 : 09:00:18
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With your high hardness I would recommend a twin-tank softener. This will give you uninterrupted service even during regeneration. With hardness at those levels, once the tank runs out of capacity, your water will become noticeably affected.
What do you mean, you can deal with hard bathing water? At those levels (even 80 grains) you're asking for serious problems if you don't manage it completely. My mother’s water is 89 grains and 4.5 iron. I put id twin tank and her toilets, faucets, washers, etc. are spotless and working perfectly. Don't sell yourself short with such extreme levels.
Something is strange about your hardness testing. For two tests to be a 20 grain differential is inexcusable. Get that right. Also, since a lab did your test, samples containing iron may have converted from ferrous to ferric over a short period of time due to temperature changes, mixing with air and addjitation.
The pellet dropped chlorinator recommended may work but with your high iron and sulfur I would use a different filtering system. Centaur is effective at removing excess chlorine, but yours will produce a great amount of sediment, too.
I have great success with retention tanks using hydrogen peroxide with a Stenner pump, which is regulated and adjustable. My distributor stopped using the 'mixing' tanks due to callback complaints. I have never used them but it was reported that they work well on sulfur alone (as sediment is easily removed), but with high iron, it may cause problems.
You have large amounts of ferric iron and this needs to be taken into consideration. There is a small mixing tube in that tank which 'atomizes' the water causing 'oxidation'. Ferric iron will clog these tiny ports and service calls soon follow.
Aeration can be very effective, it is adjustable and chemical-free.
An RO will be essential due to your extreme hardness (read: extreme sodium in softened water). The UV, as he stated, would be a nice touch but a whole house Standard-55 Class unit will be required in my area due to possible pathogens as your water tests indicate. I can give you more info on this, later.
I think you have better service with the 'local' guy. He knows the local conditions, he can make a physical appearance to your house for testing, set up, and follow up, all of which are extremely important. Post-service is very important. Tweaking the systems and placing additional equipment can be evaluated directly.
If you buy equipment on line and the local guy doesn't recommend it, then who would service it when needed?
A whole house RO??? No way! I am not sure who recommended this but even at 10 grand, you will have a mountian of headaches in service problems, restricted equipment demands, space required, waste water and a constant membrane replacement. I would not even entertain the idea. But just for kicks, can you give us more on what that quote involved.
Choose quality equipment and get it right the first time. Going cheap can be very costly.
Andy Christensen, CWS-II
Going cheap can be very costly. |
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cow_rancher
USA
1111 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2008 : 07:55:52
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Andy,
A twin tank water softner?
How long does it take to re-gen your softner, mine is set for 3 AM, when I'm not using water.
Rancher |
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Andy CWS-I
81 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2008 : 08:23:06
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quote:
Originally posted by cow_rancher
Andy,
A twin tank water softner?
How long does it take to re-gen your softner, mine is set for 3 AM, when I'm not using water.
Rancher
The regen time depends on the size of the unit. Nonetheless, it assures the use of continuous use. The problem with his water is that at those levels of hardness, once the softener runs out of capacity, say 10AM, then until the next morning hard water is drenching the house. Or if it runs out of capacity at 10PM and regen at 2 the following morning, then it might 400-500 gallons of reserve capacity unused.
Just makes sense to regen when you need it rather than when it wants to.
Andy Christensen, CWS-II
Going cheap can be very costly. |
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dginther
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 07:48:15
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What are the prevailing opinions on chlorination? I'm 90% sure that I want to avoid liquid chlorine injection.
Pellet droppers (in-well) probably won't work for me - we've got a 25+ GPM recharge rate and indications we're in a flowing aquifer.
This largely leaves the erosion pellet option. Easy to maintain, easy to implement. Gary has some sort of setup that is a mixing tank instead of a contact tank (saves space). Downsides are the cost of the chlorine, but I did have an environmental chemist tell me that "drinking quality" chlorine tablets were not significantly different than pool tablets with high chlorine and low filler compositions.
Perhaps we should decide on Chlorine after retesting our well for coliform (after sanitizing it) - local water guys says that wells over 400' in the area typically do not see contamination. My neighbor is on a forced oxygen (Addie - to kill the Sulphur eating bacteria) -> Water softener -> Reverse osmosis.
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dginther
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 07:53:01
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quote:
The regen time depends on the size of the unit. Nonetheless, it assures the use of continuous use.
Andy Christensen, CWS-II
Andy,
Are you recommending a complete 2-softener setup? In parallel or in series? I thought that modern valves could have demand-based regeneration - or programmed to address those issues. 5 days per week, we're out of the house most of the day and could set regeneration times that make sense... Seems like overkill to me when I could use a properly sized and properly programmed water softener... |
Edited by - dginther on 12/22/2008 18:42:05 |
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cow_rancher
USA
1111 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 10:25:23
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Andy,
So are there softners that re-gen when they can no longer soften the water, can you recommend a brand/model?
Rancher |
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dginther
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 18:43:14
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| Cow_rancher - you're looking for a valve that that calculate water usage - not a simple timer based regen system.. |
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Andy CWS-I
81 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 20:33:23
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quote:
Originally posted by cow_rancher
Andy,
So are there softners that re-gen when they can no longer soften the water, can you recommend a brand/model?
Rancher
Well, yes. Timer softeners often reg when they no longer can soften the water. In fact they can regen long after softened water has been exhuasted. Even demand systems can run past their softening ability. As I said above, if your tank runs out at 8:00AM but is not set to regen until 2:00AM, then you have just run hard water to your house all day.
Twin tank systems prevent this.
dginther,
I not am so sure those in-line pellet feeders are the best choice. You would be better off with an aeration system for your sulfur problems. Aermax makes a great system to completely rid the sulfur from your water without chemicals such as chlorine or potassium permanganate.
Andy Christensen, CWS-II
Nonetheless, with hardness that high, your best service will come from a twin-tank system. There's no guesswork and will give you continuous service no matter your usage.
Going cheap can be very costly. |
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dginther
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 07:36:46
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quote:
I not am so sure those in-line pellet feeders are the best choice. You would be better off with an aeration system for your sulfur problems. Aermax makes a great system to completely rid the sulfur from your water without chemicals such as chlorine or potassium permanganate.
I might be inclined to agree with you if we were only dealing with sulfur reducing bacteria.
Chlorine obviously does more for the safety of the water than aeration. The unit Gary sells isn't a pellet dropper, it's straight erosion.
I'm going to have the water tested again soon and see what shows up in Coliform.
Centaur makes a carbon filter with an air pump - what is your opinion of the carbon filter / air pump set up. |
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Andy CWS-I
81 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 16:21:21
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It may be a matter of semantics but I didn’t mean to say he had a pellet ‘dropper’ (although he does deal in them). A pellet dropper is generally accepted as a device that sits on the wellhead and drops pellets into the well water in accordance to a metering or sequential device.
What you are referring to is a canister that intersects the plumbing and is filled with compressed sodium hypochlorite tablets (pellets). Below are a few web sites that illustrate this device.
Here dealers refer to this device as a pellet feeder, probably because that is what is does.
http://www.vitasalus.com/InlineChlorinator.htm
http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/CS000120-p-chlorine-pellet-feeder.html
I’ve never heard of the term ‘straight erosion’ concerning chlorine pellet application, so I suppose it is a dealer’s vernacular rather than an industrial standard term.
Doing a search using ‘erosion’ as the key word produces these sites with chlorination. These are very different in nature and I doubt if these are to which it is being referred.
http://www.sbcontrol.com/bro255.pdf
http://www.spasansw.com.au/factsheets/Fact17.pdf
Yes, you are right, that an aerator is not adequate to handle bacteria, particularly anything pathogenic in nature (not that I am saying that is presently your water’s situation). With your new well, especially one to a depth of 400’, testing positive seems unlikely that is being caused by fecal matter leaching through the ground from a septic system or sewerage. This may be a temporary condition and I recommend subsequent and periodic testing to determine whether this condition is chronic, acute or static.
In that regard, I prefer ultraviolet as a means of disinfection (as opposed to sanitization) that is reliable, easy to maintain and, most importantly, effective. Chlorine, ozone, hydrogen peroxide are among the most common disinfection methods, but UV (NSF Standard-55, Class A) is the only method that can assure the user of disinfection of water supplies.
I am not aware that Centaur makes a filter with an air pump. That sounds more like an application. My understanding is that Centaur is a media produced from bituminous coal and processed quite differently from standard granulated activated carbons (GAC). It is a high quality media and recommended for removal (or reduction) of hydrogen sulfide, chloramines and iron from drinking water supplies. Leaving it alone to remove iron, though, I would not recommend.
Like all water treatment equipment, it can succeed or fail by its application or misapplication. Accurate test results and eduicating yourself are two keys to succeed in proper treatment.
Andy Christensen, CWS-II
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Edited by - Andy CWS-I on 12/25/2008 17:39:24 |
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New well - water quality help
