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JerryCF
5 Posts |
 Posted - 04/07/2009 : 20:41:30
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I have sulfur in the water as well as 240 mg/L hardness, total dissolved solids are 1500 mg/L. I recently purchased the home (on Lake Champlain) and the only water treatment right now is chlorine injection. The home is a vacation home that is used extensively during the spring/summer although sparingly in the fall/winter. I do winterize the house, draining and turning off all water each time we use the home in the cold season. Winterizing the home right now takes very little time, less than 30 minutes.
I have spoken with Culligan as well as Kinetico dealers in the area. Of course I have also looked at DIY systems from GE and Whirlpool, etc.
Right now I am leaning toward the Kinetico M4060 system. I liked the Kinetico dealer better than the Culligan dealer for a number of reasons, better knowledge, did his own water test, (I had one done from National Testing Laboratories, Cleveland Ohio), gave me a detailed quote, etc.
Right now I am leaning toward the Kinetico M4060 system. The quote is $3400 with another quote for the K5 RO of $1500. The Kinetico dealer said I should keep the cholorine system and add the M4060 set up.
Thoughts on different systems?
Aermax air injection vs cholorine?
Price quote reasonable?
Any help on this would be great. |
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dginther
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 14:41:56
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Why are you injecting chlorine?
I can tell you that $1500 for that fancy RO system is WAAY to much. You can go to a large capacity tanked RO system that does the same thing for about 1/5th of the cost - or a non-tanked high capacity system (like GE's Merlin) for about 1/3rd of the cost. I'd pay attention to filter cost as you'll likely be replacing the filters each summer at start up.
The GE Merlin unit can work with a back-flush tank (automatic) to help with your extremely hard water. RO is the only way you're going to get the hardness down.
My advice on treating the rest of the water is to consult an independent, which will require disclosure of your water analysis. Both Culligan and Kinetico have huge mark ups on their system and you'll likely save a bunch of money and get better components (in my opinion) than using either option.
It's likely you'll want a water softener with that much hardness - a 96k softener will run you under $1000. The other requirement would be some sort of carbon filter if you're injecting chlorine...
Is there a contact tank in your system? Do you know that your chlorine injector is working appropriately? Do you have any bacterial contamination?
Like you, I have *very* hard water. I treat with a softener and an RO system - my TDS out of the RO system is usually in the 100 range.
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Andy CWS-I
81 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2009 : 17:22:20
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Does your chlorinating system have a back washing filter? What type of chemical pump does it have: Diaphragm or Paristaltic? Is there a retention tank for the mixing of chlorine and incoming water?
Kinetico makes two models of the 4060; one is with a ceramic media and one is with a carbon media. Which was recommended and why? It is an excellent unit and will give you decades of great service. The ceramic media can filter down to 3-5 microns and is a paraflow system.
The K5 is a one-of-a-kind drinking water station. Yes, it is pricey but nothing comes close in design and function. It comes with a built-in membrane pump, hydraulically operated holding tank, all lines are 3/8” and the flow is great. Comes with nine optional filter elements including the only certified bacterial/viral filter, among other additional choices.
Now then, your water test results. You have about 15 grains hardness but 1500 TDS. You should determine the elements in the high TDS. Sodium, chlorides, sulfides, nitrates/nitrites, etc.? Is your water visibly clear when drawn? How high is your sulfur? Best to test on a rainy day and must be tested at location.
Not sure why a 96,000 grain unit would be recommended for 15 grain water. I mean, what is that, a 14x54-inch tank with 3-cuft of resin?
We sold Merlin's for a while but had to take too many of them back. Their membranes don’t flush or last very long and the permeate TDS rises quickly compared to other ROs. Also, you must maintain a 60 psi influent pressure to provide adequate supply and quality.
I thought the Merlin was a great idea and in some circumstances with some adaptations, it is a very good unit. It’s two large membranes can provide up to a 1/2 gallon per minute supply, which equals the K5 with average pressure.
If you need more details on equipment specs, let me know and I’ll try to provide fro you.
Andy Christensen, CWS-II
Going cheap can be very costly. |
Edited by - Andy CWS-I on 05/13/2009 06:51:43 |
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watertanks.com
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 08:55:28
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quote:
Originally posted by JerryCF
I have sulfur in the water as well as 240 mg/L hardness, total dissolved solids are 1500 mg/L. I recently purchased the home (on Lake Champlain) and the only water treatment right now is chlorine injection. The home is a vacation home that is used extensively during the spring/summer although sparingly in the fall/winter. I do winterize the house, draining and turning off all water each time we use the home in the cold season. Winterizing the home right now takes very little time, less than 30 minutes.
I have spoken with Culligan as well as Kinetico dealers in the area. Of course I have also looked at DIY systems from GE and Whirlpool, etc.
Right now I am leaning toward the Kinetico M4060 system. I liked the Kinetico dealer better than the Culligan dealer for a number of reasons, better knowledge, did his own water test, (I had one done from National Testing Laboratories, Cleveland Ohio), gave me a detailed quote, etc.
Right now I am leaning toward the Kinetico M4060 system. The quote is $3400 with another quote for the K5 RO of $1500. The Kinetico dealer said I should keep the cholorine system and add the M4060 set up.
Thoughts on different systems?
Aermax air injection vs cholorine?
Price quote reasonable?
Any help on this would be great.
If you are looking for an inline system. Kinetico is prehaps your best bet. I have always liked dealing with Kinetco dealers. Another option would be to get a holding tank with an ozone system in the holding tank. You are still looking at around 3000 for that type of system depending on the size of the holding tank you would be looking at.
James Opferman
Pump and Tank Tech
American Tank Company
http://www.watertanks.com/
707-535-1415 (direct phone)
707- 535-1465 (Fax)
jameso@americantank.com |
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spencer6497
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 16:26:31
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| If someone starts trying to sell you a Springhouse by Ecoquest do a search. Its not what you want on a well or as a whole house system. Good luck. Spencer |
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dginther
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2009 : 14:32:32
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I'm a big fan of going independent. I asked a Chlorine question because it's important - there may be some undesirable bugs in your water that chlorine is there to kill. If you have Chlorine, you should have a contact tank and probably a filter to remove chlorine.
How to treat your water is going to depend on what your actual water quality is. Knowing the water quality after your water treatment setup (like your Chlorine system) might help people make educated suggestions.
If you're injecting straight chlorine, no contact tank, no filtration - well... the water may or may not be safe to drink and that's kind of an odd system.
A complete water test from a lab runs about $75.
I'm not sure that I'd go with GE or Whirlpool - there are better systems out there designed for a variety of water problems that are more reliable and cost less. Until we know what you're dealing with - beyond simply very hard water, we can't help.
Chlorine shouldn't be fed directly into a water softener, BTW.
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JerryCF
5 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 17:27:23
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Ok,
There is no holding tank for the chlorine injection, just the expansion tank. I though the chlorine was put in place because of the sulfur smell. There is no bacteria in the water as I had it tested by a lab. There is no backwashing filter. I do not know what type of pump is with the chlorine, except it is some kind of vacuum which pulls chlorine from a tank and mixes it into the incoming water line. The water test results indicate some sodium, zinc, sulfate, iron, copper, magnesium selenium all detectable but below standards. You can easily smell the sulfur especially after the house has not been used for a month or so. The water is clear and I imagine that with no bacteria you could drink it but we dont. It seems that all I have is hard water with sulfur. Right now we do not drink the water, but I would like to.
I liked the Kinetico dealer rep (seemed very thorough and provided detailed estimates) and did not like the Culligan rep, (halfassed testing and never provided detailed cost estimate although it was above the Kinetico price).
What I want is to be able to have good water that I can drink and shower with and that wont ruin my water heater, washer, dishwasher.
I do not know enough about softeners, filters, etc. to be able to tell if the water is good. Yes sure I am mechanically inclined to install anything from Home Depot or wherever, but which system is appropriate for my situation. I have neighbors (cheap people) who have an off the rack softener and filters, except they only use the house for three months out of the year and do not drink the water. Other neighbors constantly complain about their systems (which they had professionally installed only to determine that they are smarter all of a sudden and then make changes)that they then complain about.
Where do I go from here?
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dginther
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 09:51:48
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I'll bet that you do have bacteria in the system... When the water sits - it grows a bacteria that give off that H2S smell.. This bacteria is probably harmless in most cases. To test for bacteria in the well, you need a coliform test on the supply water, prior to chlorination.
Assuming we don't think we're left with any harmful bacteria... What is it that you're trying to change about the water? Your TDS is super high - about 300% above "livestock" levels. The result will be water that tastes funny. The only way to remove TDS is via Reverse Osmosis. I good RO filter will remove 90-95% of the TDS and make the water much more drinkable. You should not be spending more than about $400 on that system (at the very upper end). Anyone quoting you $1500 is taking you for a big ride unless it's a whole house system.
Decide if you can live with the hardness. The harness will be very bad for appliances and water heaters, so even if you think it's OK to shower in the stuff, you might want to consider a softener.
I've owned the Kenmore brand softeners from HD - they're really designed for use with city water and moderate hardness. What I would suggest is a "professional grade" softener from an online retailer. If you're after good post-sale advice and installation instructions, consider Gary Slussier - he can size one for you. His softeners use Clack WS-1 valves which are reliable, easily serviced, and very common. The "professional grade" systems will actually cost you less delivered to your door than what you can buy at HD and be much better quality. |
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JerryCF
5 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 20:08:21
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I took my water samples last summer after using the house for a month or so with no water standing for more than a day or so. I disconnected the chlorine injection and ran the water for a while. The lab results (National Testing Laboratories, Cleveland OH) stated no Coliform. The sulfur smell is there whether the house has been sitting or even after constant use in the summer.
I could live with the hardness if I had to, but I don't want to. I don’t want to fix appliances, faucets or have hard water stains, etc. I would like to drink the water, but don’t need to from every faucet. So it seems that some type of softener is necessary and I don't need a whole house RO system. I also want a system that can work easily on an occasional basis during the winter months when the water is shut off for long periods of time. Thus draining the system and having it easily back online when I decide to use the house a particular weekend is desired.
A system with timers, etc. does not seem to fit my needs due to the occasional use during the off season and my desire for a system with the least possible effort.
I have not looked online at all, but will. |
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Ironhead
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2009 : 14:19:08
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Greetings Jerry,
Just reading your comments and note you did not think a whole house RO was required.
You might give it some thought. Think of the RO as a softening device that will also lower the TDS of your water. Depending on specifics of your water you should not need salt, or chlorine and you could have a very simple system with low service frequency. Perhaps just one hour of service at begining and end of each season.
Some important issues are: where would you put the system, garage basement etc...? How much water will you need per day, and where will you dispose of RO concentrate.
KC
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watertanks.com
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 15:39:38
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Jerry,
Another option would be to funnel all your water into a holding tank and use an ozone system to clean the water. You would size the holding tank to 25 percent more than your daily use of water for the house hold. That will eliminate the sulfur smell, magnese, and high iron content if that is what is causing the hardness. A full house RO I think would be a bit of an overkill, but it would solve your problem. Now a small under the sink R/O unit would be perfect for your drinking needs, though I would take a look at a softener.
James Opferman
Pump and Tank Tech
American Tank Company
http://www.watertanks.com/
707-535-1415 (direct phone)
707- 535-1465 (Fax)
jameso@americantank.com |
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Ironhead
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 05:18:19
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Jerry
Any chance you can post your complete water analysis. Ozone is potentially a great idea for the H2S. May also need a supplemental post filter to remove anything that is oxidized by ozone.
For the Softener. With a high TDS water softeners may not leave an ascetically pleasing product.. A softener will work but it will also trade sodium for calcium in your water and you will still have high TDS possible corrosion issues. Check with your neighbors about effects on silverware, life of appliances/fixtures, general spotting on glass, etc…. They’ll usually be your best experts if the well water is similar. Also think about your camp is it a rough camp, or do you have lots of tile, glass shower stalls etc… If you are more to rough side, cure the odor and consider living with the rest.
Back to the Whole house RO, “Membrane Softener” may be the better term. It will soften your water and reduce TDS in one step. Storage tank with post ozone and possible carbon leaves you with a system requiring low maintenance and you will not be lugging 40 – 80 lb bags of salt up the driveway, or dealing with chlorine when you should be bird watching, looking for Champi, Fishing, etc…..
KC
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Arlos
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 10:14:23
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sulphur requires an oxidizer and right now the "Iron Breaker" that uses air will take care of the H2S in your system without the use of chlorine which may create a by products of disinfection issue. You also avoid the expense of an additional carbon filter.
What ever dealer you choose, make sure you are selecting one that will respond to your service needs. That $1,500 R/O can be replaced with a $179 Watts RO4 from Costco and provide high quality drinking water and the replacement filter pack is $24.
I used to install Merlins but nearly every single one has developed the same problem, running to drain. Neither GE not Pentair has given a satisfactory answer other than try and re coop $ from the distributor with close to 50 of these installed, many now sent to land fill and the rest we are replacing with Watts I'd do some research before selecting any brand. We gave away filtered water at an Earth Day event here in santa Cruz, Ca and everyone commented on the quality of water from the Watts unit. |
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JerryCF
5 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 19:50:57
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| I tried to scan my water test but it did not work. I am tending to shy away from a salt based softener system, because I am not sure how it would handle being drained on a regular basis during the winter. |
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Ironhead
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 15:24:25
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Greetings,
Just getting back to reading this string. As to your water analysis. I used hardness as reported and estimated what sodium and chlorides should be. I get as much as 420 on the sodium and over 500 chlorides. Talk to your neighbors! If you want your silverware to keep looking nice or if you are concerned about metallic finish on fixtures you'll need to reduce chlorides, bellow 250 would be a good number, low 100's even better.
Whole house RO is the only way to cost effectively make this happen.
If it is a rough camp I’d suggest just fixing the sulfur, under sink RO would give you great ice and water to cook with. Air injection or air induction systems, (I’m guessing that’s what Iron Breaker is), may work very well depending on the level of sulfur you have in the water. Just stay away from any steel tanks or mild steel pumps. Paint and Coating systems have come along way but with high chloride water the steel will not hold up well.
If sulfur is very low <1, a catalytic carbon unit may work well. Longevity may not be that great but in terms of simple systems this is it. You can even buy the carbon tank with a bottom drain for winterizing. I’d suggest you could make one – two seasons on the carbon depending on how often you use the camp. An inexpensive filter housing in front would give you a method to drop a chlorine pellet or two in front to give the carbon a little help.
For really nice water.
I’d suggest whole house RO or better yet NF or membrane softener. Add a storage tank, a small ozone injection system and a catalytic carbon filter as final post filter before house. This would give you a system with no chemicals, no salt, and truly impressive water quality. I would suggest that you’ll need about ½ day at beginning and end of season to get up and running or shut down.
As to the H2S level. This one really needs to be tested on site. The higher it is the more you need to insure that engineering is done correctly. H2S is a very nasty gas and can cause health effects at low levels in the air. If you do anything that results in H2S being released to atmosphere makes sure it is vented out of confined spaces or rooms.
Regards KC
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Seasonal Well Water
