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tetonguy
8 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2009 : 16:08:05
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| My 20 yr old submersible 1 1/2 hp, 20+/- gpm pump was replaced twice this past month with a 1 1/2 hp, 19 hp submersible pump. The previous pump was set at 160 ft, whereas the new one is at 140 ft. Also the pump controller was replaced, also twice this month - both re-replacements were for electrical problems. The 20 yr old Well X Trol tank, Model WX 302, was not replaced. The original 40-60 psi pressure switch was also replaced - twice. The new switch is also 40-60 psi with adjustable differential. It has a 1/4 inch npsf inlet but no pulsation plug. I can't tell if it has a low pressure cut-off feature. The original switch would just make a soft 'click' when turning the pump on or off. Both the replacement switches have the bouncing problem. The current one makes a soft 'click' at pump cut-in, but makes a hard 'snap' or 'thump' at pump cut-off. It usually makes makes a single thump then but sometimes several thumps at cut-off. But when the bouncing starts, which is at cut-off, I can't stop it until I shut off pump system power and drain the domestic water system. This bouncing happens randomly - sometimes in successive cycles - sometimes not for days. The tee to the pressure switch is in a 1 1/4 inch line 33 inches from the tank centerline. The small pressure switch pipe is 12 inches from the tee. This is the original piping that has worked fine for 20 yrs with the previous pump, controller, and pressure switch. Now the tank: - It shows no sign of external rust. The air pressure when empty a week ago was 32 psi so I added air to 38 psi, but it now reads 36 psi when empty - a loss of 2 psi in a week. Also presently, with water pressure at 58 psi, the air pressure reads 48 psi. With the domestic water system drained, and with the main shut-off to the domestic water system then closed, if I open and then close the water drain near the tank, the water pressure guage reading very gradually rises to the air pressure reading. This puzzles me. I repeat this and it happens again. The well contractor says the tank is okay and wonders about siphoning back to the well. My System: - There is a check valve in the irrigation supply line which is separate from the domestic water system but when that line is closed, the bouncing still happens. Bouncing also happens when the domestic water shut-off is closed; therefore, I presume any components of that system would not be a factor. The well head is abount 30 ft from the tank and I assume there's a check valve in that line. Sometimes the domestic water system will gradually lose some pressure overnight even though all valves in the system are closed. My questions are: 1 - Is the tank busted? 2 - Could there be a check valve problem in the well line? (I assume a check is there) 3 - Is the new pressure switch spring too stiff for this service? 4 - Knowing that water hammer is bad, is the bouncing also damaging the pump or it's contoller? When the pressure switch is bouncing, is it energizing the pump with each bounce? Or does the pump controller prevent that? Signed - Sleepless Guy |
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cow_rancher
USA
1110 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 14:13:10
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quote:
Originally posted by tetonguy
Also presently, with water pressure at 58 psi, the air pressure reads 48 psi.
Either the water pressure gauge is not reading correctly or the tire pressure gauge that you are using to read the air pressure is not reading correctly, get a different tire pressure gauge.
quote:
Originally posted by tetonguyWith the domestic water system drained, and with the main shut-off to the domestic water system then closed, if I open and then close the water drain near the tank, the water pressure guage reading very gradually rises to the air pressure reading.
This doesn't make sense, the water pressure gauge should never be less than the air pressure reading, unless the tank is empty.
quote:
Originally posted by tetonguy1 - Is the tank busted?
No probably not.
quote:
Originally posted by tetonguy2 - Could there be a check valve problem in the well line? (I assume a check is there)
There is a check valve in the submersible pump, that is all you need.
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Originally posted by tetonguy3 - Is the new pressure switch spring too stiff for this service?
What make and model of switch is it, (probably not).
quote:
Originally posted by tetonguy
[quote]Originally posted by tetonguy4 - Knowing that water hammer is bad, is the bouncing also damaging the pump or it's contoller? When the pressure switch is bouncing, is it energizing the pump with each bounce? Or does the pump controller prevent that?
Take the cover off of the pressure switch and watch the contacts, if when it is bouncing you see sparks, call the pump guy back to find the problem and fix it.
Rancher
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tetonguy
8 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 15:57:40
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Thanks much for your reply and clearing up some questions.
1 - I reread the guages just now and with the tank not empty and tank air pressure at 44 psi, the the water pressure is also 44 psi.
2 - The tank was empty when this occurred - that is after the tank was empty and the water pressure guage was reading zero, I closed the shut-off to the domestic water system thereby isolating the tank. Then I opened the water tank drain and less than half a cup of water came out. I then closed the drain and watched for about 5 minutes as the water pressure guage very slowly climbed in pressure from zero to equal the tank air pressure reading - about 32 psi at that time. With the tank empty, how can the water side pressure reach air side pressure unless there's a leak between? Can the bladder function to that degree? What can be causing the tank to slowly lose air pressure - 2 psi in a week?
3 - Glad to know that - thanks.
4 - SquareD Model 9013FSG2J24. It was the first replacement model and the current replacement model.
5 - I'll have to check the pressure switch for arcing and report back.
I perhaps should add that the well contractor had earlier said the electrical power to the pump from the controller was not consistent in that there was a difference in voltage in the two hot lines to the pump from the controller - like maybe one was at 120V and one at 115V. My home is on a rural system and there are the usual voltage problems from that, but my original pump system never had problems from that. That first replacement pump and it's controller lasted only a week before the pump failed. There was a problem with the capacitor as well in the first replacement controller. These were reasons the first replacements were re-replaced. But I continue to have the bouncing that began with the first replacements.
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tetonguy
8 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 06:27:33
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| I've now noticed that the pressure switch bounces at cut-in as well as cut-out. |
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cow_rancher
USA
1110 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 08:41:57
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The pressure switch needs to be right at the tank, was it moved from when it used to work correctly?
Rancher |
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tetonguy
8 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2009 : 11:50:54
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Thanks for the reply. No, the pressure switch is in the same location and with the same piping as originally.
This is to further explain the switch location. The main line from the tank is sized at 1 1/4 inch. This line has a tee to the irrigation system which is about 28 inches from the centerline of the tank. The line is then directly reduced to 1 inch with a reducer. Directly next, there's the tee to the pressure switch which is 33 inces from the tank centerline. Thus there are two tees in the main line from the tank - one to the irrigation system at 28 inches from the tank and the tee to the pressure switch at 33 inches from the tank centerline. Between these two tees is a reducer from 1 1/4 inch to 1 inch pipe. From the tee to the pressure switch there are 12 inches of 1/4 inch pipe. This line includes a tee that branches to the pressure gauge as well as the pressure switch.
I checked the pressure switch when it was bouncing at the cut-in pressure and the contacts were closed. As it was bouncing I pushed the spring mechanism and the bouncing stopped. Also, when it's bouncing at the cut-off pressure I can also stop the bouncing with pushing on the spring mechanism. Thus at least I don't have to drain the system to stop the bouncing.
Would the fact that the new pump is set 20 ft higher make a difference in the pressure switch function? It was 160 ft before and is 140 ft with the new pump.
Also, in rechecking my tank when empty, the air pressure stays near 38 psi so my earlier comment on losing air pressure apparently was in error.
We've had a leak in our irrigation line which is being fixed. When the irrigation line was open but not operating, the leak was causing the pump to operate about every 3 or 4 hours - day and night. Then with the irrigation line is operating it would cycle every 5 to 15 minutes depending on which irrigation valve was operating. Could this effect the pressure switch function? |
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cow_rancher
USA
1110 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 07:24:41
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| Is the pressure gauge also bouncing when the switch is bouncing? |
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tetonguy
8 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 19:20:32
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| Yes it bounces every time, whether at cut-in pressure or at cut-off pressure. |
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tetonguy
8 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2009 : 21:46:51
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| Forgot to mention that the pressure gauge was replaced when the the pressure switch was replaced the first time. |
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cow_rancher
USA
1110 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 07:31:21
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Both are bouncing because either the tank is waterlogged, or there is an obstruction between the pressure switch/gauge and the tank.
Rancher |
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tetonguy
8 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 11:00:14
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I'll blow down the lines between the tank, pressure switch, and pressure gauge.
If that doesn't stop the bouncing, is a 'waterlogged' tank the same as a 'busted' tank? And is it fixable, or at 20 years, should I just replace it? |
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cow_rancher
USA
1110 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 13:29:06
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Drain the tank, rock it if it's heavy it's waterlogged (busted). It is not repairable, even the ones with replacable bladders are normally not repaired, just toss it.
And 20 years is a long time for a bladder tank.
Rancher |
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tetonguy
8 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2009 : 07:53:24
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Okay, I cleaned out the pressure switch/pressure gauge lines - it was constricted at one place from 1/4 inch down to 1/8 inch so I thought that was it. No such luck! The occasional bouncing continues, mostly on cut-in pressure, so then I checked the tank.
When I try to dislodge and lift the tank to see if it's heavy, it is difficult because of the rigid pipe connection, so it is either 'rigid' or 'heavy' and perhaps to be partially filled - 1/4 full when it's supposed to be 'empty'. If I tap the sides, the air section sounds hollow, but the lower water section sounds solid - when 'empty' - perhaps the lower 1/5 of the tank still has water. Also, after I had supposedly 'drained' the tank thru the drain valve, and was removing the pressure switch line from it's main line tee, another gallon plus of water came gushing from the drain valve and pressure switch tee. This puzzled me as I had thought the tank to be already 'drained' by the drain valve. Does this confirm it is 'busted'?
If it needs replacement, what size should I be considering. When the original tank was installed 20 yrs ago, I didn't do irrigation watering - that was added 10 yrs ago. Now I use irrigation watering from the tank from May thru September. It generally cycles the pump every 15 minutes when in use which is about 2-3 hrs a day on average when it's a dry spell here - more often nowadays. Without the irrigation use, we use little water per day.
The new pump is rated 19 gpm. The original tank is nominally 86 gallons with a 25 gal. drawdown - a Well-X-Trol, Model WX 302, but I guess if it's waterlogged, the drawdown is less. I can only have a single tank so was considering either another WX 302 or a WX 350 rated 119 gpm with a 35 gal. drawdown.
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cow_rancher
USA
1110 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2009 : 17:03:15
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If it worked before I would replace it with what was originally there, avoid using any constant pressure valves before the pressure tank, they will cause your pump to fail sooner not later as they claim.
Rancher |
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Valveman
USA
320 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 05:52:15
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quote:
Originally posted by cow_rancher
avoid using any constant pressure valves before the pressure tank, they will cause your pump to fail sooner not later as they claim.
Rancher
Now that is an outright lie!!! With a Constant Pressure Valve you would only need a 4.4 gallon size tank, and your pump, motor, and tank would last MUCH longer. Rancher works for one of the pressure tank manufacturers, and they don't want you to know this.
See this link;
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=122
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Valveman
USA
320 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 14:56:03
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Does the screen name "Valveman" sound like I am trying to hide anything? Of course I own Cycle Stop Valves, Inc., and proud of it. I stand behind my product and everything I say.
Company Name? Cycle Stop Valves, Inc.
Real name? Cary Austin aka "Valveman"
Phone number? 806-885-4445
Now if I worked for a pump or tank manufacturer and wanted to sabotage my competition, I would stay completely anonymous. I would bring up Constant Pressure Valves at every opportunity, even when nobody ask, like in this case. I would plant seeds of fear like "it will burn up your pump, blow up your drop pipe, or the earth is flat", even though I know it is not true. I would post the same link over and over to the one article ever written with any negative information, even though I knew it was false, and just designed to help sell more tanks for the company that wrote it. I could say anything I want with impunity, because nobody knows me by any name other than "Cow Rancher".
Identifying yourself and making slanderous statements is another can of worms. But here is your chance to prove you are not lying. I have nothing to hide, what about you?
Company Name? ______________________.
Your Real name?________________________.
Phone number?_________________________.
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Bouncing Pressure Switch
